(2/3) All signs point to Dean being God’s Chosen, but Sam is the one that’s going to be the Christ figure? Why? It just doesn’t make any sense. I don’t understand how Sam can be a seen as a Christ figure at the drop of a hat, but Dean being viewed through the same mythological lends is some Sisyphean effort. Dean has literally had the myth arc of, ‘Sacrificed himself only to be resurrected by Heaven so he can fight Satan’ and he’s the one true vessel of a Christ stand-in (Michael). (2/3)
(3/3) Sam is not Supernatural’s only hero. Dean is too and he deserves to have the narrative that has always been about him- because Dean is the one who sought out Cain and got the MOC in the first place- be about him and be concluded by him. (3/3)
I agree, with everything you say, but wonder have you heard new spoilers? Or read someone’s spec that says they definitely think Sam will be the Chosen One? Right now, I keep seeing posts saying that it’s gonna be Cas. As you can imagine I don’t want it to be either unless Dean is also chosen, and it’s all three somehow.
I’ve been reading @dustydreamsanddirtyscars and @lost-shoe a lot with their spec, and they both point to Dean, and I still hold out a little bit of hope that they’re both going to be right. There’s a LOT of pessimism amongst my other friends which I can understand, immediate assumptions that anything interesting will be handed over to Sam especially. The fact that Andrew Dabb is writing the finale has made it worse.
The thing is though, there has been so much foreshadowing in the MOTW eps recently…especially Safe House, that Dean may end up somewhere like the Empty, that Dean is going to be in someone else’s control..again Safe House, and also Into The Mystic, and then there’s the obvious parallels with s5 with Dean in a similar position that Sam was in back then.
Plus, out you pointed out, Amara is connected to Dean in a way no one else is…and to have him just stand aside while the others defeat her would not make any sense narratively, even by Supernatural’s standards it would be ridiculous.
My thought, and this is because even when being more positive, I’m still cynical with it, is that Dean will end up in another realm again because if nothing else I think the writers are going to re-do the whole Dean is lost, presumed gone forever, scenario and this time Sam will bring him back. The current writers seem very preoccupied with trying to make Sam likeable, more so this season than ever, turning him into some kind of hunter yoda type at the start of the season (although that only makes him look a hypocrite tbh), the Imaginary Friend ep (which to me anyway was awful because it made him look ungrateful as a child of what Dean did for him…it’s funny how no matter hard they try they still manage to make Sam look bad) to the Super “Marty Stu” Sam writing of Red Meat. They also seem to be going through the familiar checklist of what fandom has complained about for years – giving him extra POV and bonding time with guest characters. The other thing on the checklist, something that creates a lot of bitterness and arguments, is that Sam never bothered to look for Dean in Purgatory, and failed to rescue to him from Hell. So if the writers are hoping to make up for it, then redoing s5 where Dean this time makes the jump with the big bad is the most likely opportunity. Which sadly means that this could all be just for Sam’s benefit rather than actually be about Dean. But then that’s the way it is because as Jensen’s made it clear, Jared is the first person on the call sheet! This is Sam’s show, there’s no way around that. Carver especially has made that clear since he took over. The least we can hope for not a repeat of s8 where Dean was literally buying the drinks for the rest of TFW and offering moral support and not much else.
This was mostly in response to some speculations I had come across where the authors were just making these positive assertions that Sam was going be God’s Chosen and concocting all of these situations that were totally going to happen to Sam based on literally no evidence whatsoever. Essentially the argument was, “Sam is going to be God’s Chosen One because he’s God’s Chosen One and who else could it possibly be other than Sam?”
Admittedly, this is part of a certain breed of Sam headcanon that I am really not a fan of. The kind that likes to paint Sam as this Spotless Lamb of God who saved the world as part of his personal redemption and, on occasion, asserts that Sam is not only a Christ figure, but that Sam is literally Jesus Christ simply because he deserves to be and/or because he held his arms outstretched that one time. It just bothers the ever living shit out of me.
That sort of blind devotion to the deification of a character is extremely problematic because it verges on cultism. Most of the time, they’re just parroting what others have said and don’t actually have a solid argument for it or really know what they’re talking about. They also tend to grossly misrepresent the theology connected to that idea. A Christ figure’s actions must to be outwardly motivated. If they’re doing it for themselves, that negates the whole idea of them being a Christ figure. Saints aren’t saints because they ‘deserve’ it, they’re saints because they earned it.
Objectively, I don’t care that those parallels are being drawn to Sam, I just don’t like the mentality that comes along with it: “Sam is one hundred percent this archetype and no other character could possibly be this archetype
too and to think otherwise is nothing short of blasphemy. This archetype
belongs to Sam and only him because he’s perfect and awesome.” It just isn’t intellectually honest. It’s revisionist and strikes me as overcompensating for Sam’s short comings as a character by applying narrative and symbolic erasure to other characters.
I can say this because, while I might be convinced that Dean is a Christ figure and that it’s an archetype that I think fits Dean the best, I will admit that Sam and Castiel have been one as well at various points. I will also admit that, even though I read Dean that way, I don’t think Dean is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Dean is a flawed human being who regularly falls short of the grace of God, but it’s okay that Dean does. In the immortal words of Metatron from Dogma, “Noah was a drunk. Look at what he accomplished.”
All that said, the fact that they’re asserting that Sam is going to be the Chosen One is that sort of mentality in action.“Sam is totally The Special because God forbid Dean be The Special even though logically he should be.”
It’s a bias that has also been playing out for years in spn’s narrative and it’s just exhaustively frustrating.
“Dean is stated to be the Righteous Man, the one who must stop The Apocalypse and the archangel he’s the one true vessel of is the only being that can fight the Devil? How about we invent this Deus Ex Machina so Sam can save the day and while we’re at it, lets put that archangel in another meat suit so Dean has barely any role in the narrative he started.”
“Dean has willfully volunteered to do the Trails and has made it clear that he’s going to finish them, even if that means sacrificing himself? How about we have a random act of happenstance occur to prevent Dean from doing them so Sam can do them and be the hero instead. Dean can make him soup and worry about him because being Sam’s parent is what Dean does.”
“Dean was in Hell for forty years and has expressly stated that what happened to him will be with him forever? It was the catalyst for two seasons worth of plot? Let’s make it a thing for half a season and never bring up it up again or utilize it in the plot ever again, even when that narrative is being paralleled. Oh! But lets rehash Sam being in The Cage for a third time. It’s not like we spent two full seasons on it or anything.”
The narrative of the Mark of Cain and The Darkness simply doesn’t belong to Sam. He doesn’t parallel Cain, he never bore the Mark and he has no connection to Amara. He said ‘no’ to Lucifer and Lucifer turned out to not be a dud for combating The Darkness. Never mind the fact that Lucifer flat out said that God was never with Sam to begin with. There is literally no reason why it should be Sam. None. If they decide at the last moment to make it about Sam, it would be very bad storytelling.
I’m not saying that this narrative needs to only be about Dean. If the show wants to do a Team Free Will thing with Dean leading the charge, that’s totally cool in my book and it works perfectly with the parallels to season five going on. But this is an arc that has always been Dean’s. He should and he needs to be proactive within it and it needs to be about him in a substantial and meaningful way.
Sure thing, I’ll publish this, and everyone who has a blog that meets your description, can either reblog this or reply to it!
So if you:
– Ship Destiel
– Are Dean positive
– Love both Cas and Dean
– Don’t post Dean/others or Cas/others
reblog this, or leave a reply to the anon!
@ anon: Keep watching the notes on this post! 🙂
Dean, you told me you couldn’t beat Amara, that it would have to be me. Well, this is it – me.
Sam, 11.22 – We Happy Few
This is Sam at his manipulative best. Make a plan behind Dean’s back (a ridiculously stupid plan, which he KNOWS there’s no way Dean would go along with if he knew), and when it’s too late to change anything, or to hear Dean’s opinion, he turns it around and phrases it in such a way that this is what DEAN really has been asking for all along.
And presenting it as the only possible way for things to go.
In addition, I just love how he once again codes accepting what he wants to DO as the same as accepting him as a person. As if he is still unable to differentiate between the two. Either Dean agrees with whatever his plans are and follows his lead (without too much objection), or its proof that Dean is rejecting/disrespecting him.
This. Same old Ruby shit, is what it boils down to. (“Oh, Dean, but you’re not strong enough, you’re gonna have to let me do the thing, and it’s gonna be my way or the highway.”)
Same thing as it was with the Swan Suck situation:
Dean wants to say yes to Michael? Cas beats him up , he gets thrown in the panic room. (note that Dean saying yes to Michael, as far as they knew, required no extra sacrifice and Dean had been careful to keep everyone protected as far as he could with a deal with the angels. And Adam would’ve survived)
Sam wants to say yes to Lucifer? Dean, you better respect your brother’s choices! And help us bleed some demons so he can drink demon blood despite it being what caused the problem in the first place. Because if you don’t, you are a bad brother! (So there were a few meatsuits that got killed, plus all the people Lucifer killed while getting to Lawrence, PLUS Bobby, Cas and Adam. Bobby and Cas got better. Everyone else, didn’t)
Dean wants to keep the Mark and be sent to Outer space? Oh, despite the fact that it had been shown that Dean was never out of control, Sam plotted behind his back and created an impossible situation that of course, required that Dean sacrificed ONE person so that Death would sent him to outer space. (And if Sam hadn’t been an idiot, that one sacrifice wouldn’t have been required)
Sam wants to get the Mark and MAYBE be sent to outer space? Oh, Dean, you better support your brother, he’s such a hero! (never mind that all the people who died in season 11 were Sam’s fault for not supporting his brother)
A piece of shit? This is so frustrating because people expect such vastly different things from the show that of course it lets them down.
The announcement for season 12 was pretty late. If you look at the way the second half of the season was set up it’s very likely this season could/should have been the last. Which is why some people believe that the reason so many writers left is because they had already prepared themselves to look for new jobs.
Imagine what a fucking mess it was to figure out how to keep the story going when you’re not sure if you’re going to have to write the series finale or you’ll have to stretch it out so that it leaves the door open for the next season.
With Dabb coming in as showrunner they had to change gears because Carver’s story is ending but the show is going forward. It’s time for a reboot. That means they need to tie up end loose ends so that Season 12 is a fresh start. What’s so scandalous about having to talk to the showrunner to get a scene right? You’ve all heard the story about the whoopie cushion haven’t you? This is Dabb’s story now, it’s his turn to make his vision a reality, exactly the way he wants.
So many questions have been answered throughout the season, neatly getting rid of concerns from the fandom all season long and people still think that amounts to nothing? What more do you want?
Have you ever stopped to think that part of Castiel’s character development is that he doesn’t need answers from God anymore? That he’s found a real family he can lean on? He doesn’t need “a cosmic band-aid”. What he’s going through is deeper than that. His struggle stems from how he views himself (expendable) and the guilt he’s been shouldering from the very moment he rebelled against heaven. He needs to find worth in himself by himself. That’s what it’s all been leading up to.
I mean…I feel like Jared and Jensen and Misha have all pretty much told us that the finale is a piece of shit?? Why else would they say there’s too much content in it and that they had to call Dabb about it??? And then Jensen is saying “you forgive the show a lot” or whatever????? like omg. It sounds like it’s going to be a disaster. And then Jared was saying a bunch of shit got cut out.
Just. WHY do you spend all season doing nothing and then try to cram everything into 3 episodes? WHYYYY
“Um I think it might be kind of interesting to see Cas have to take the reigns and really fix a problem for everybody else because one of the things that has been happening for Castlel ,and I think it’s because of how the narrative unfolds on Supernatural, is that he is often almost always suffering from some disability or another, so somehow his powers are diminished or he is incapacitated in someway most of the time and that’s because the character could be so powerful that he could just solve all of the boys problems for them and the writers don’t want that to happen. But I think it would be nice to have a little arc where Cas was, Cas had to handle fixing things for the boys for a while that might be fun to play with sort of giving him his full power back for a little while when he’s not possessed by leviathans or lucifer or crazy or some other problem like that.”
In the season finale we’re going to see Cas finally in a position where he’s able to see his true worth and be the one to save the day. Not because he’s sacrificing himself for the greater good (like Sam tried to with taking on the Mark or the way Dean tried when he decided to launch himself into space) but because he can be the one to save everyone. Not out of duty but out of loyalty and love.
wtf? “what’s so scandalous about talking to a showrunner about getting a scene right” ? that’s not what they said. they said that all of them were on the phone to Dabb talking about “story points”. That isn’t the same as Misha having trouble with one tiny scene about a whoopie cushion. are you high?
So many questions have been answered throughout the season, neatly getting rid of concerns from the fandom all season long and people still think that amounts to nothing? What more do you want?
literally what the hell are you talking about? what questions have been answered? what concerns have been neatly gotten rid of?
He doesn’t need “a cosmic band-aid”.
Oh, but Metatron, Dean, Sam and Lucifer all did? How convenient.
This is so frustrating because people expect such vastly different things from the show that of course it lets them down.
Um, no. I was not let down by finales in the past. I loved them. All the way up until Season 8 that is. They were all pretty damn good. And Season 9 finale was also ok as far as it went. 8 and 10, the finales where the winchesters were selfish assholes and Cas was left on his own with horrendous shit happening to him, no I did not enjoy that.
Imagine what a fucking mess it was to figure out how to keep the story going when you’re not sure if you’re going to have to write the series finale or you’ll have to stretch it out so that it leaves the door open for the next season.
Imagine what a fucking mess it is to have showrunners who don’t know how to write a TV show without massive amounts of fillers and no character development. We don’t have to imagine it, we can just watch the show for the past 2 seasons.
And misha was not talking about the finale when he said that. he was talking in general that he’s tired of them having Cas cursed, tortured, depressed, depowered and will never give him a break or let him be strong. That’s why he said he would like that to be an “arc” sometime in the future.
Have you ever stopped to think that part of Castiel’s character development is that he doesn’t need answers from God anymore? That he’s found a real family he can lean on?
Have you ever stopped to consider that you’re full of shit? lmao. Why are you reblogging a negative post and spewing a bunch of positive police crap all over it? Who the fuck says that Cas only does what he does out of duty and not out of loyalty and love???? Season 9′s final episodes were about Cas giving up an angel army to save Dean. Season 10 all he did was try to save Dean. Earlier THIS SEASON he took back control from Lucifer to save Dean in The Vessel.
Maybe I’ll reblog this after the finale airs and I can laugh.
I think the most ridiculous part about their reply (the entire thing is a joke) is this – “Have you ever stopped to think that part of Castiel’s character development is that he doesn’t need answers from God anymore? That he’s found a real family he can lean on?”
WTF? How can they even think that? Like have we SEEN Cas’ character developed like that? Have we seen him express that he is at peace with his father? Wasn’t it JUST in season 10 the 3 of them when out for beers to compare notes about their dads. Sam and Dean had some fond story about John and Cas had nothing to say about God. God who me he searched to find to help stop the Apocalypse. God who he begged for a sign to help against Raphael. His faith in his father never wavered yet he still doesn’t get to talk to him.
How can you say his character development is that doesn’t need answers anymore? Castiel has fought for and believed in Humanity for YEARS. And Metatron feeds one dog and suddenly it’s ok to have him plead on behave of humanity? To have HIM who wanted to wipe everyone out be the voice of people? To convince God to save mankind when Castiel is the only angel currently alive that has fought tooth and nail to save humanity?
Spoiled temper tantrum Lucifer gets peace with his father but obedient son Castiel gets nothing? In fact he suddenly no longer becomes God’s fav?
Dean Winchester gets to hash it out with God standing as a substitute for his OWN father but Cas doesn’t get the same opportunity?
Again if someone can show me exactly where Cas’ character development where he dies not speak to his father is coming from I’d like to see it. Actual canon text. Not pretzel positive meta.
He found a real family he can lean on? Yeah where is this real family? Sam and Dean? We aren’t shown that in the show. Sometimes I wish people would take off their meta glasses and watch the show like a casual fan. Seeing only what it actually shown on screen. Castiel does not have a family. The angels hate him and he cannot go home without being reprogrammed. Sam and Dean treat him like shit.
Dean that kicked him out of the bunker WITHOUT money and left him homeless. He had to sleep at a gas station and Dean mocked him for his job. I don’t care if Gadreel had said kick him out. He could have given him money, or the number of another hunter, or even send him to Jody. No he left his “family” homeless and broke.
When Cas was dying from stolen grace, Sam didn’t even give him a place to sleep in the bunker. He was DYING. In a disgusting old cabin. Where was his new new family he can lean on then? No 1 helped Cas recover his grace in season 10. Neither Sam nor Dean. He did that all on his own. Cad is very much alone in this show.
Even Robert Singer says Cas is HOMELESS. Yeah some newfamily he has.
Also it is incredibly stupid writing to paint yourself into a corner. A renewal should not leave you scrambling to make your story work for another season. You should understand your characters and show enough that you can see their continued lives and motivations. But Supernatural cannot can’t let go of their stupid formula of stupid MOTW eps and rush the finale with some random hashed plan every season.
The thing is though….Dean was always destined to beGod’s Chosen One, it was even hinted at in the very first season when they referenced Michael in Houses of the Holy. You know all this of course, but for those at the back who’ve just walked in so to speak, Dean is Michael’s vessel and Michael was God’s leader of Heaven, and if the Sam fans want to talk about the show stealing their favourite’s archetype then lets talk about how the show decided to shelf Dean’s Chosen One role at the end of season 5 in favour of the boy king Sam who decided drinking demon blood was a good idea instead, and Dean had to learn to accept it. Sam being given the role at the last gasp, and then falling slow mo into a CGI hole for “reasons” is why they like to wax lyrical about Sam the Christ figure in the first place, a role that Sam was not supposed to have. If anything, Dean being God’s Chosen One this season is simply Dean getting back the role that was stolen from him in the first place.
(Lets not even go into how Dean’s first real storyline was completely undermined by having Sam go to a “worst” version of Hell (like Dean’s was an insignificant walk in the park) and then getting more screen time and focus on all that it did to him which lingered on even this season, whereas Dean’s time in Hell was pretty much brushed under the carpet before season 4 was even over.)
It’s just a shame now that after this week, it seems that Chuck!God is not really the one I want Dean following, if anything I would like to see Dean rip into Chuck!God and am starting to root for Amara. Or actually, better yet…let Dean be the Chosen One, with all the entertaining bells and whistles, let Dean go to Amara…they end up somewhere like the Empty, and after being locked up together they come to some kind of understanding, both deciding Chuck!God is to blame for everything pretty much, there’s no more non con, they make it back to earth and we go into season 12 with Amara working with TFW to defeat Chuck!God, Metatron and Lucifer.
Yes. And you know what? Dean going up against Heaven would strengthen the idea that Dean is a messiah.
Christianity likes to focus on the martyr interpretation of what a messiah is, that it’s all about self-sacrifice for a greater good. While that’s valid-and also applicable to Dean-that isn’t the only interpretation of what a messiah is. A messiah can also be understood to be someone who tears down the current order of things. Someone who dismantles the status quo. (And yes,Jesuscan beunderstoodthat waytoo.)
Dean has always done just that.
He’s is a skeptic. He questions and wrestles with God and calls Heaven out on it’s bullshit. Dean is the guy who, after Michael told him that Free Will was an illusion, made Free Will his objective. He has no issue telling angels to piss off, has gone up against them and even killed them. Dean is David going up against a never ending string of angelic Goliaths and that is a good thing because Heaven is not good. The angels are corrupt bureaucrats and God is an absentee father who apparently doesn’t care much that His children are sticking a fork into a power outlet.
The fact that Dean doesn’t have faith in God and regularly doubts the Will of Heaven makes him more righteous and holy- makes him more of a messiah- than if he had faith because Heaven needs to be taken with a grain of salt. In fact, Heaven needs to be opposed and should be
opposed
if there is to be any salvation for both Humanity and Creation.
All that said, I would love to see Dean go after not only Chuck, but also Amara. Yes, Chuck is a dick, but she’s not innocent either. Chuck and Amara are two sides of the same coin. Both are detriments to Creation in their own ways. Chuck through his negligence and Amara through her destruction.The only way Creation can be saved is by getting rid of both of them and Dean ‘I kill gods’ Winchester is only one who can do that.
I heard there was speculation that Metatron was God’s chosen and his favorite lmao. I mean yeah, Curtis gave a good performance last ep but REALLY? he killed Dean and Kevin and stole Cas’ grace and hasn’t done anything to deserve a redemption. Feeding a dog isn’t exactly the YEARS of penance Cas has done since he saved the world.
It’s one thing to accept that we don’t get him in many episodes for ~reasons~. But this was taking HIS story away and giving it to an awful person that no one even likes. Just because they had to keep torturing Cas, as if he hasn’t been tortured enough! And don’t give me that, maybe he’ll get his moment with his Dad, God has already been convinced. That’s gone and not coming back and they gave it to fucking Metatron. Screw this.
(2/3) All signs point to Dean being God’s Chosen, but Sam is the one that’s going to be the Christ figure? Why? It just doesn’t make any sense. I don’t understand how Sam can be a seen as a Christ figure at the drop of a hat, but Dean being viewed through the same mythological lends is some Sisyphean effort. Dean has literally had the myth arc of, ‘Sacrificed himself only to be resurrected by Heaven so he can fight Satan’ and he’s the one true vessel of a Christ stand-in (Michael). (2/3)
(3/3) Sam is not Supernatural’s only hero. Dean is too and he deserves to have the narrative that has always been about him- because Dean is the one who sought out Cain and got the MOC in the first place- be about him and be concluded by him. (3/3)
I agree, with everything you say, but wonder have you heard new spoilers? Or read someone’s spec that says they definitely think Sam will be the Chosen One? Right now, I keep seeing posts saying that it’s gonna be Cas. As you can imagine I don’t want it to be either unless Dean is also chosen, and it’s all three somehow.
I’ve been reading @dustydreamsanddirtyscars and @lost-shoe a lot with their spec, and they both point to Dean, and I still hold out a little bit of hope that they’re both going to be right. There’s a LOT of pessimism amongst my other friends which I can understand, immediate assumptions that anything interesting will be handed over to Sam especially. The fact that Andrew Dabb is writing the finale has made it worse.
The thing is though, there has been so much foreshadowing in the MOTW eps recently…especially Safe House, that Dean may end up somewhere like the Empty, that Dean is going to be in someone else’s control..again Safe House, and also Into The Mystic, and then there’s the obvious parallels with s5 with Dean in a similar position that Sam was in back then.
Plus, out you pointed out, Amara is connected to Dean in a way no one else is…and to have him just stand aside while the others defeat her would not make any sense narratively, even by Supernatural’s standards it would be ridiculous.
My thought, and this is because even when being more positive, I’m still cynical with it, is that Dean will end up in another realm again because if nothing else I think the writers are going to re-do the whole Dean is lost, presumed gone forever, scenario and this time Sam will bring him back. The current writers seem very preoccupied with trying to make Sam likeable, more so this season than ever, turning him into some kind of hunter yoda type at the start of the season (although that only makes him look a hypocrite tbh), the Imaginary Friend ep (which to me anyway was awful because it made him look ungrateful as a child of what Dean did for him…it’s funny how no matter hard they try they still manage to make Sam look bad) to the Super “Marty Stu” Sam writing of Red Meat. They also seem to be going through the familiar checklist of what fandom has complained about for years – giving him extra POV and bonding time with guest characters. The other thing on the checklist, something that creates a lot of bitterness and arguments, is that Sam never bothered to look for Dean in Purgatory, and failed to rescue to him from Hell. So if the writers are hoping to make up for it, then redoing s5 where Dean this time makes the jump with the big bad is the most likely opportunity. Which sadly means that this could all be just for Sam’s benefit rather than actually be about Dean. But then that’s the way it is because as Jensen’s made it clear, Jared is the first person on the call sheet! This is Sam’s show, there’s no way around that. Carver especially has made that clear since he took over. The least we can hope for not a repeat of s8 where Dean was literally buying the drinks for the rest of TFW and offering moral support and not much else.
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