flowerdeann:

eruthiawenluin:

saelyg:

her-roses-never-fall:

flowerdeann:

watch them not address the fact that dean is stepping into hell again………………and having to think about all the trauma he went through……………but lol deans suffering is not important i guess……..

If they don’t bring up Dean’s time in Hell I will be pissed. Dean going to Hell was a traumatic, life changing event. Fuck, it was a universe changing event. It deserves to be discussed in narrative and it never is. After ‘On The Head of a Pin’, it kind of just poofed from existence. 

They didn’t make any attempt to discuss it during the Mark of Cain arc, even though they very easily could have and probably should have given how well it would fit thematically.

Meanwhile, Sam got two full seasons dealing with his time in The Cage and now he’s gotten to openly discuss that trauma, not once, but three God damn times. 

It’s so ridiculous how they try to ignore Dean’s time in Hell which is arguably more important to the storyline than Sam’s time in Hell. And Dean didn’t have anyone to help him when he came back, no support, nothing–Sam spent the whole time after Dean came back betraying him, lying to him, making him feel like crap, calling him “weak” and rolling his eyes on one of the few occasions Dean tried to talk with him about it(not to mention the number of times other people “boo hoo’d” about it), whereas, as usual, Sam had Dean, who tried to help deal with the effects.

Sam was supportive of Dean when Dean came back from Hell. I don’t know if you just skimmed over it or something, but remember how Sam tried to help Dean deal with it throughout all of season 4? He asked Dean if he wanted to open up about it. Sam was there for him. Dean chose to open up to Sam only once or twice. And when Dean did, Sam was completely supportive of him. Sam never used Dean’s time in Hell against him or anything and he did all he could to help him. It was Dean’s choice whether or not to let Sam in. There were a couple occasions where Dean did choose to, and there Sam listened and was there for him. Sam hiding his working with Ruby from Dean has nothing to do with Sam actually being there for Dean. Furthermore -and I explained this in much detail last night as well- but Sam never called Dean weak in the sense that he had no willpower or strength. In fact, when Dean opened up to Sam and told him he tortured souls for 10 years, Sam commented on how he held out for a full 30 years and that he didn’t need to be stronger or something. You say that Sam called Dean weak all season long, but the only time anything like this happened was in “When the Levee Breaks.” Sam did not think of Dean as weak in the sense that he had no willpower or strength, nor did he say that. Sam said that Dean wasn’t strong enough to take down Lilith because of this (copied and pasted from my own post):

“I’m going to paraphrase someone when I say this. Sam didn’t choose Ruby over Dean. You might think that sounds like plain as plain ignorance, but I’m going to support that with actual, valid reasoning.

• Sam asked again and again for Dean to join him and Ruby in saving the world- the only plausible way to do it
• Dean perceived Sam working with Ruby as a betrayal, but it wasn’t
• Sam and Dean were lead to believe that killing Lilith would prevent the apocalypse
• Sam wanted to do it because he had powers that could kill her and was the only one willing to do it that was powerful enough to, since the demon-killing knife wouldn’t have worked on the First Demon like it wouldn’t work on a Knight of Hell- same reason it was Dean who killed Abaddon and not Sam
• Dean wanted to do it with Bobby because he thought Sam’s tactic was self-destructive and turning him into something “other”
• “Sam choosing a demon’s words over Dean’s”- it wasn’t Ruby’s words, it was fact that everyone has acknowledged and accepted that Sam could kill Lilith
• The angels told Dean they believed it would be Dean that would stop the apocalypse- a half truth
• Dean believed the angels -even though he thinks they come off as “shady politicians”- and took it as “I can kill and will Lilith”
• He did it in part because he thought Sam’s path was self-destructive and that the loss of Sam would be the cost of killing Lilith
• Dean is desperate to believe there’s another way that will not harm either of them and falls for the lie
• Sam is aware that he, being the only one of Azazel’s Chosen left in the world, is the only one both willing and capable (because he has immunity to demons’ powers and powers of his own) to take down Lilith
• Sam didn’t think Dean wasn’t strong enough in the sense that he wasn’t strong or good enough but in the sense that Dean literally did not have an available weapon or power that could take down Lilith
• Sam did not choose specifically Ruby’s words over Dean’s but rather logic and reasoning
• Dean wanted to kill Ruby, who was the only one able to get information on Lilith and her whereabouts that wasn’t an angel who would be unwilling to actually give information away at this point
• Sam saw this as Dean trying to kill their only information source, ally -common enemy and all that- and needlessly endangering their chances of finding and killing Lilith
• Sam never saw Dean as “worthless and a terrible hunter” and that is not why he didn’t think Dean could be the one to end the apocalypse- though he did think Dean could help end it- and thought Dean didn’t understand, which is why he kept trying to explain his purpose to him
• Sam has promoted Dean’s self-worth over the years
• Sam has never told Dean that he’s a terrible hunter, he’s aware -and so is Dean- that they’re both pretty good hunters”

Tell me what occasion Sam rolled his eyes when Dean tried to talk about it because I have no idea what episode this happens in. I will go back to rewatch it if somebody tells me. Until then that remains unproven but not disproved, either. I can’t counter something if you don’t give me anything to counter, nor can I explain it from a non-Dean victimization pov. (Not that being a victim is a bad thing, as I fear I’ll be accused of thinking, but that y’all want to look at it from a perspective that shows it that way in its entirety to prove your point that Dean deserves better. That’s just how arguments are done.) 

Sam did have Dean to help him when Sam came back from Hell, and Sam did let Dean in, except for when he thought he would only be a burden. Dean went along with Sam pretending everything was alright, whereas Sam knew Dean wasn’t alright and tried to get him to open up about it on several occasions, as he does in plenty of other situations as well (John’s death for example.) 

The point is that Sam didn’t just “call Dean weak and roll his eyes at him.”

Sam’s time in Hell is actually incredibly relevant to this storyline. But Dean’s is also. because he’s been there before. I also thought about how this is Dean’s first time going back. It was my second thought when I saw the promo pictures a few days ago and with the extended promo, behind “thank God they’re not playing off Sam’s time in Hell/trauma as we feared, based on the first promo considering the Christmas special stuff.” It’s more likely than not that they’re going to mention it- this upcoming episode looks like it’s going to focus a lot on the trauma of the boys and everything. However, this particular situation pertains to Sam because it’s his torturer they’re dealing with and that he’s currently trapped with, though that’s not to say Dean doesn’t have a history with Lucifer, but Sam’s is greater in size and more personal. 

Also, before anyone says anything, Sam does still remember his time in Hell. Once again, copied and pasted from a debate last night:

“Sam does, in fact, remember Hell. Not only is it implied when Death himself, much more powerful than Castiel, couldn’t erase Sam’s memories, but it’s confirmed in canon in Man’s Best Friend with Benefits when a spell is cast to make Sam and Dean relive their worst memories and we see Sam in Hell. Sam relived it because the memory remained. Furthermore, in order for Sam to have no memory left whatsoever, he would need to have not just the memories removed but his mind and memories of season 7 manipulated and erased (the hallucinations and his memories of them, or his memories of reacting to them, that is) to not remember anything. Think about it. Death himself said that he couldn’t just erase Sam’s Hell. It is also canon that when Sam’s soul was returned, it was, “…flayed to the raw nerve.”  Saying that Sam did not go through the trauma that he did goes directly against canon. For one, upon having his mental wall broken, the product of Sam’s memories being unleashed was Sam entering a comatose state. I don’t think “not even being tortured for a week,” can do that. Nor does it follow through with Sam’s vivid Hellucinations, the seizure he experienced when he unlocked what felt like “a week, more or less” (not even a week doesn’t fit with that 18 months x 10 years he was there for). We know that Cas transferred the crazy to him, the part that was killing him (I guess you could simplify it to his hellucinations). But it is canon that his memories were there to stay. Also, just a notable mention, but Sam took on his Hell memories when he could have just stayed inside his own head and been happy and at peace because: “You know me. I’m not leaving my brother alone out there.” Sam remembers that they are currently up against Castiel and Raphael and that Purgatory is going to be opened, so he chooses to remember in order to help in the fight.”

<EDIT: View Death, in this interaction:

DEAN: I understand that it’s… damaged.

DEATH: Try flayed… to the raw nerve.

DEAN: Well, is there any way that you could, uh- I don’t know, hack the Hell part off?

DEATH: Dean, Dean, Dean. What do you think the soul is? Some pie you can slice? The soul can be bludgeoned, tortured, but never broken by me.

DEAN: Well, there’s gotta be something.

DEATH: Maybe. I can’t erase Sam’s Hell, but I can put it behind a wall, if you will.

DEAN: A wall?

DEATH: In his mind. A dam to hold back the tide. Nasty, those memories; you don’t want to know what they’ll do to him- believe me. EDIT>

Like you do, I agree that Dean’s time in Hell should be addressed this episode. Though they might not say anything. They didn’t say anything about Sam’s trauma when Sam went to Hell in season 8 to save an innocent soul. So the worry is still there. I have faith that there will be at least some mention of it.

ok but this post isnt about whether sam tried to make dean open up about his time in hell……………………that was like 10 years ago………………what this is about is that the show in general never seemed to address dean’s time in hell and brushed it under the rug as if dean’s trauma isnt important………….i know full well that dean doesnt like to open up and talk about these things and thats not what this post was initially about………..im trying to say that sam’s time in hell always seems to be the “big” talk on this show and the writers have brought up sams “trauma” from the stuff he experienced in hell and based numerous seasons off of that (as if its not enough that this whole show is already centered around him)……i get that you’re trying to make a valid argument but honestly this is for people that are bitter and that have had enough of hearing about sams problems and want deans problems to be addressed and be as valid as sams problems…………and the fact that youre saying “they didnt address sams trauma when he went to hell to save an innocent soul” well they’ve addressed literally every single problem sam has had on this show from like day 1 and never seem to think that anything dean does is worth talking about and again this is not about the fact that dean doesnt like to talk about his feelings even if hes suffering this is about the WRITERS needing to shed light to his suffering and not betray their own storyline that they wrote……………this is about people making fun of dean when he FINALLY does upon up……………..this is about making dean feel like hes not manly enough when he talks about his feelings and traumas but when sam does it everyone is so proud of him for it……………..also why make dean go to hell and suffer for 40 years if youre just gonna give importance to sams time in hell??????? whats the point??????? once again defending sam on a post that has NOTHING to do with him………..like yall cant even give dean!girls the space to be bitter……………..